Curse

gerg-nad · Feb 25, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

I have come to the conclusion that many people do not know much about bonding. Bonding can be have very good synergies for the team and player. One of the best Synergies happens in teams that can leverage Life Bond and Balthzar Spirit as well as Seeds of Life, but there are many other bonding synergies and scenarios.

For example, say you have an OF tank team. First off, even though they have nerfed the skill time, from 8 seconds to now 4-5 seconds depending on your level of Sunspear, Seed of Life should be taken. Also monks should be using an enchantment extension weapon, Enchantments last 20% longer.

Two monks that are often in a group and one is a Healer and one Protection/Bonder. Let say your Bonder is the following:
Protection: 12 + 1 + 3 Divine Favor: 12 + 1
[skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]blessed signet[/skill][skill]vital blessing[/skill][skill]life bond[/skill][skill]balthazar's spirit[/skill][skill]rebirth[/skill]

Often [skill]vital blessing[/skill] is replace with [skill]dismiss condition[/skill], but for many areas I find this limited use as there usually are multiple conditions on multiple people and even with the fast recharge time, you end up healing folks more than removing conditions. Another bond that is brought is [skill]life attunement[/skill], and this may prove usefull especially when a lots of healing is necessary such as for spike damage.

I propose one skill change for the Healer/HB monk that will make a large difference from the typical build. Often either Holy Haste or some other skill is brought, but I suggest having the HB monk bring Life Bond as well.

Healing: 12 + 1 + 3 Divine Favor: 12 + 1
[skill]Healer's Boon[/skill][skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill][skill]ethereal light[/skill][skill]heal party[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]life bond[/skill][skill]rebirth[/skill]

This Life Bond on the HB monk serves two purposes, primarily benefiting the monks, but it willl take cooperation of both monks to make it work. So the the bonder monks typically puts all three bonds on the tank, vital blessing, life bond, and balthazar's spirit. In addition, the bonder should put balthazar's spirit on themselves, which I am not sure inexperience bonder know to do. As, putting balthazar spirit on themselves will give them energy everytime the tank is hit, since a little damage is passed on to the bonder through Life Bond which will trigger Balthazar's Spirit.

Well similar to this energy gain method, the HB monk will put Life Bond on the tank and the Bonder Monk then should put Balthazar's Spirit on the HB monk. So you may ask why not just use Essence Bond for the HB monk, and here is why, since both monks have Life Bond, Seed of Life will trigger through the bonds. In that way the monks can cast Seed of Life on each other which will trigger Seed of Life to work, healing the whole party. That way the monks do not have to be close to the tank to heal and it will heal the whole party in as well as the tank, this is especially true for the bonder monk, who can help with the healing by putting Seed of Life on the HB monk.

(The higher protection Life Bond takes precidence, so the tank will get the full benefit of the bonders high protection, but LB are not stackable.)
Protection/Bonder Monk Bond Target:
Tank: Vital Blessing, Life Bond, Balthazar's Spirit
Protection/Bonder Monk: Balthazar's Spirit
HB Monk: Balthazar's Spirit

HB Monk Bond Target:
Tank: Life Bond

The optimum way to do this is to have an understanding which monk goes first with Seed of Life, and then to alternate trying to avoid having it up simultaneously so to maximize the time. Swapping it on each other, the monks can tell when its up and when its down because it was put on them. When, Seed of Life, was at 8 seconds, with an enchantment extensions weapon (1.2*8=10),(and Divine Blessing on one monk), you could keep this up almost all the time with two monks. Now with the nerf to 4-5 seconds, 1.2*5=6, you can cover about 1/2 the recharge time of the seed of life skill, but that is still very good. The only thing to watch out for is when the bonds are stripped it will not obviously work as intended, and for toucher (life draining skill), as this is not triggered as damage, so seed of life will not heal regardless of the whether applied through bonds or directly. So for touchers, such as Restless Dead, auxillary direct healing skills are necessary, such as Dwayna's Kiss. The key is to rubber band cast this so that you avoid breaking aggro (or having the restless shadowstep to you). For those that do not know "rubberband" casting is to cast your spell just barely in aggro range, then to back up right after casting, then to repeat for each spell cast.

So with this one skill on the typical HB build and applying the tactics described, it can have a huge impact on the success, aggro risk, energy management, and work of the monks. Having Life Bond on the HB monk provided 3 major opportunites.
1. With Balthazar's Spirit on the Monk it will provide energy
2. Will allow swaping of Seed of Life on each monk, maximizing time applied
3. Minimizes need to be near tank so avoids breaking aggro

I know many folks know this already, so it may be nothing new, but I know many folks that played monks have not bonded much nor thought about it much.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 25, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Bonders are good for teams that are bad (for example, tank n spank)

For everyone with a clue, imbagon > bonder

majikmajikmajik · Feb 25, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

yeah all you need is a obby really and your set

Earth · Feb 25, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by majikmajikmajik

yeah all you need is an imbagon really and your set

Fixed.

1234

jonnieboi05 · Feb 25, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

even so.... why would anyone honestly run an OF warrior? xD

I D E L E T E D I · Feb 25, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

PS+SoA on war > OF tank anytime of the day

gerg-nad · Feb 26, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quite the negative reaction and diversion from the point of the thread and bonding. Please do not turn this into a Trinity team bashing thread. Imbagon is a totally different team and style, its what I like to call the mad scramble team where there is no front line just a mad scramble. Not really much synergy between classes as you likely have few classes and few spell casters if any.

In a good OF (sometimes called trinity) team, which were the first teams to do very difficult areas, such as DOA, a tank would group up aggro and hold at a choke point and the damage dealers would come in and kill the pile in one fell swoop and the monks would keep folks alive, primarily the tank. I find it a very rewarding team as each member of the team has a specific role to contribute to the teams success.

I assume that many of the folks that are bashing Trinity either have had poor sucess with teams or do not like this style of play. There are certainly many other types of teams that are successful, I am just describing a place where bonding knowledge and synergy has benefit. Another bonding team is the 600Monk Bond team, where SoA and Prot spirit are used by the Monk tank, here smite bonds are generally used, so another type of bonding. A three man team with the right bonds and tank can clear many very difficult areas.

fainty · Feb 26, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

OF tank? Obsidian Flesh tank? only place where i played with one was with dual farm UW and once in FoW...

bonding can be nice, also in thus places, but why would you use a OF tank and a bonder in the same party?
if you use a bonder, others are more surely that they don't have make place for a selfish heal on their bar.

and next to that, i rather have a warrior who can deal damage while having enough armor to back it up. save/watch yourself + shields up is mostly more then enough.

Chthon · Feb 26, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerg-nad

Quite the negative reaction and diversion from the point of the thread and bonding. Please do not turn this into a Trinity team bashing thread.

Oh, but didn't you know: "Teh Duality is teh new metaz"? Every since Avarre proclaimed that SY and TNTF are so broken that you can recklessly run your whole team face-first into aggro like day-1 newbies in ascalon city and not die, folks around here have been acting like it's the coolest thing since sliced bread. Is it really? I'm not sure. It's certainly easier than tank-n-spank, and a whole hell of a lot more forgiving of mistakes, but it can't really compare with the speed of a good tank-n-spank in a lot of places, and claims that it's some "higher level of play" are just haughty BS. (Really, I think it's the haughtiness that annoys me the most -- Abuse Ursan to play with newbie tactics in an "elite" zone, and you get called ten-thousand variations on "pathetic noob loser" in an instant; but abuse SY and TNTF to play with the same newbie tactics in an "elite" zone, and it's "a higher level of play"? Right....) Anywho, it's not that the people who are bashing you are ignorant of how to tank-n-spank, it's just that they seem themselves as "above" it and feel a petty need to mock you for it.

Abedeus · Feb 26, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

I used to enjoy Bonder. Now I know that a LoD/HB + imbagon IS better. I mean sure, you have infinite energy, but wouldn't be better a whole team of tanks with more than 160 armor? They barely take any damage, maybe from uber spells like Savannah Heat or armor-ignoring ones.

Besides, you are a bit retarded if you think OF is better/faster/stronger/you need it right now. It's just one character slot wasted on ultimate defense of one person, while imbagon is ultimate defense on everyone + nice damage output + GREATER MOBILITY.

ender6 · Feb 26, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

The bashing was the result of one thing:
"Bonding-Misunderstood monk synergies"

No one misunderstands the "synergy".

you are:
"...fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."

MirkoTeran · Feb 26, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

but it can't really compare with the speed of a good tank-n-spank in a lot of places

Could you care to list a few places where Tank&Spank outperforms one of the current overpowerd/broken teams (imbagons, UB,..)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilseabass

The assholes who are bashing this thread fail to realize that this game doesnt have to be played in "my way or the highway"-style.

It doesn't have anything to do with "my way or the highway"-style. Play it as you want. Its just a simple fact that some groups are better than others. Its your own choice to choose a less-optimal (but "funner") build.

byteme! · Feb 26, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

I stopped reading when I realized he was going to tell us about an OF tank, a healing monk and a tank bonder... epic fail

Criticizing concepts that WORK is fail. Open your eyes. There are 500+ skills to learn to use. If you don't want to use them -Uninstall.

Here we have a nice individual "trying" to enlighten others with the concept of bonding and all you ungreatful SOB's come and bash him for trying to lend a helping hand? THE VERY FIRST REPLY was a bashing. Horrible horrible horrible people. He's not showing us Frenzy + Heal sig + Mending is he? He never stated that you MUST run this. He never stated you MUST run Obflesh. This is for the people THAT DO USE IT. You people should be ashamed of yourselves.

If everyone kept up with the times and ever changing meta GW would die in a week. Every outpost/dungeon/quest/mission would have the same core of professions with the same optimized builds leaving nearly nothing to the imagination. Not because we the people don't have any imagination, it's just the elitists wouldn't allow it. Why do we even need 500+ skills? Just have a fixed, pre-determined, and optimized 8 skill template for every instance for each profession and you're good to go.

LameWars

MirkoTeran · Feb 26, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

Criticizing concepts that WORK is fail. Open your eyes. There are 500+ skills to learn to use. If you don't want to use them -Uninstall.

Here we have a nice individual "trying" to enlighten others with the concept of bonding and all you ungreatful SOB's come and bash him for trying to lend a helping hand? THE VERY FIRST REPLY was a bashing. Horrible horrible horrible people. He's not showing us Frenzy + Heal sig + Mending is he? He never stated that you MUST run this. He never stated you MUST run Obflesh. This is for the people THAT DO USE IT. You people should be ashamed of yourselves.

You do understand that more or less any bonding in PvE is inferior to lets say imbagon in 99% of cases (with or without OF tank.)? If not, you might want to use your own advice and uninstall.

byteme! · Feb 26, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

You do understand that more or less any bonding in PvE is inferior to lets say imbagon in 99% of cases (with or without OF tank.)? If not, you might want to use your own advice and uninstall.

You do know that I have an imagination and that I do know these things right? Naive or just ignorant? The OP nor I once mentioned any comparison between Imbagon and a Bonder/Ob Flesh team. The Imbagon is a whole other topic altogether. Where are you pulling all these strawman arguments from? Do you not know what this topic was about to begin with? How about give him constructive criticism on how he can improve his build rather then telling him to scrap the whole thing. These threads don't close on their own. Hint Hint

I think I'll be keeping my copy of GW installed this time around.

evilseabass · Feb 26, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

You do understand that more or less any bonding in PvE is inferior to lets say imbagon in 99% of cases (with or without OF tank.)? If not, you might want to use your own advice and uninstall.

Last I checked, this thread was about bonding, NOT about why you think a paragon may or may not be better than a bonder. If you want to debate effectiveness between these 2 completely valid character types, go somewhere else where it is appropriate.

Coloneh · Feb 27, 2008, 01:33 AM // 01:33

thank you admins for deleting a bunch of posts... great!

anyways tanking is failure because the AI was nerfed over 2 years ago... maybe you didnt notice?

Chthon · Feb 27, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

Could you care to list a few places where Tank&Spank outperforms one of the current overpowerd/broken teams (imbagons, UB,..)?

Since you asked nicely, without flaming or posting cat pictures, I'll respond.

The relative speeds of tank-n-spank and duality-imbagon/UB have everything to do with mob size, because mob size dictates how much you can leverage your AoE for. Tank-n-spank has a long setup while you get everyone into position and then wait for the tank to ball stuff, but once you start nuking, you kill the entire mob, no matter how large, pretty much instantly if you do it right. Conversely, duality-imbagon/UB have virtually zero setup time (just rush straight in), but you have to to kill off scattered monsters, which takes longer and longer the more there are. Above a certain mob size, tank-n-spank is going to save more time by killing the entire mob in one pop than it's going to lose through its slower setup. Below that mob size, tank-n-spank loses more time for its long setup than it gains by killing the mob near-instantly. Slaver's Exile is, for the most part, a good example of the first case, while UW is, for the most part, a good example of the second case.

From a "getting the job done (and fast)" perspective, neither is better than the other across the board. Each is better than the other in certain zones.

From an ease/safety/mistake-forgiving perspective, duality-imbagon/UB is clearly better.

From an "omg you're a noob" perspective, duality-imbagon/UB is definitely more "noob-ish." You're doing pretty much the same damn thing as "noobs" straight out of the searing -- put some defense/debuffs on your skillbars, run your entire squad headlong into the mobs, and pray your defenses hold -- and relying on a handful of imba skills to keep you from going splat. Now, I think Avarre personally deserves a lot of credit for the insight that "hey, we don't have to do this tank stuff anymore; these new NF/PvE skills let us play without any tactics at all and win." But I think people are fooling themselves when they claim that playing in this mode is somehow skillful or clever on their parts.

Savio · Feb 27, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Now, I think Avarre personally deserves a lot of credit for the insight that "hey, we don't have to do this tank stuff anymore; these new NF/PvE skills let us play without any tactics at all and win."

I'm not sure why you're singling out Avarre, as it has nothing specifically to do with him.

Quote:

But I think people are fooling themselves when they claim that playing in this mode is somehow skillful or clever on their parts.

Even with Ursan, you can play slightly smarter than tank-n-spank - not that you have to or that anyone does, but you can. There is no potential for learning or playing well with tank-n-spank beyond tank-n-spank mentalities; additionally tank-n-spank doesn't work in nearly as many settings as other strategies do.

As far as bonding goes, people don't use it because it's particularly fragile, and tanking mostly died after the AoE/gear tank nerfs. Bonding works well if your tank-n-spank is going well, but if it isn't you're completely screwed.

Improvavel · Feb 27, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I dont understand why ppl call tanks to stuff that cant do damage. I would call them meat bags.

Now the problem with meat bags is that if aggro breaks people die.

Now tanks (proper warriors/dervish that deal damage) can go there take a beating, give one back and if aggro is broken the team can handle it.

A balanced team requires more skill, cause individual skill choices do matter.

In a tank and spank dont- U have a defensive character a monk dedicated to it, another monk and people that load aoe spells.

In a balanced build you have defensive and offensive skills in pretty much all bars other than monks--> this means if for some reason, the enemy break aggro from the warrior/dervish and go attack ur squishies, its not the end of the world.

Pulling and keeping aggro has a place in any pve team build, some need to keep aggro at all costs or be wiped, others will try to keep it but don't worry if the aggro breaks.